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Post Info TOPIC: 1960s Warwick 3500 GT races


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1960s Warwick 3500 GT races


Snetterton Sunday 23rd July 1961. Simon Hill finished 3rd in the Autosport Championship Class D behind the winning Jaguar D Type and an Aston DBR1. 

R Hain was unplaced in a 2L Warwick GT (Class C)



-- Edited by Alfa164 on Sunday 21st of February 2021 04:02:27 PM



-- Edited by Alfa164 on Sunday 21st of February 2021 04:03:33 PM



-- Edited by Alfa164 on Sunday 21st of February 2021 04:04:33 PM



-- Edited by Alfa164 on Sunday 21st of February 2021 04:06:11 PM

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Two Warwick 350s entered at Brands Hatch, September 3rd 1961. Plus 3 two litre Warwicks 

 



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looks to be an all works driver team then as Mr Shiers used to work for Warwick on sales, his brother was in the paint shop...oh yea, and his sister did secretarial works there too!

 

good bits of copy there, thanks Mike and I'm sure Duncan will be along shortly as he's putting all this stuff together for us.



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A good performance at Snetterton in a quality field. Car 34 was 1688MC and 22 was 75RBH.



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good pic William, I haven't seen that image before smile



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Could it be that Brian Shiers was driving his own car, now in the care of DeanC?

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Dave GT2 



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Silverstone Saturday 5th of June 1965

16th annual race meeting. 

Mr. D.R. Morrison competing with his Warwick GT in event 3 and 14.

Unfortunately no mentioning of race results. 



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no, dont think so, I think Brian shipped his car as parts utilising some of the TR3 parts from his car that he damaged in the UK and "traded" his engine for the one out of 697 UPA....but who knows!

We'll see if we can find any photos of the race in question as they were happy to use cars with registrations on at that time, even customers cars...



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Erik V wrote:

Silverstone Saturday 5th of June 1965

16th annual race meeting. 

Mr. D.R. Morrison competing with his Warwick GT in event 3 and 14.

Unfortunately no mentioning of race results. 


 and on the subject of Mr Morrison, Duncan has written an article which will be in the next edition of TRaction magazine



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Does anyone have nay more information or photos of the 3500's that ran at Brands Hatch in September 1961. I'm assuming the car driven by Hamm was the primrose factory demo V8 but I'm curious about the second one. Any details would be appreciated. Could it have been a left hand drive car?

 

Thanks in advance - Jim Bolinger (Canton, OH)



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All the questions you ask are the ones I would very much like to know. I now think as the years have gone by is many we will never know.
Those who were there are not here now to ask all the questions we want to know.
What makes you think one was LHD.

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There are three photos of Warwicks racing in 1961 currently on ebay.

None of these are Left hand drive and the V8 is not 75RBH

So what number does the primrose 2litre car wear now?

F

 

 



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No, it's not me!

My (originally primrose) car was registered under its own number in March 1961, before these pictures were taken.

F



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As a past owner of a primrose Warwick GT, 465 PMB - W/GT 00015, it would seem that if cars were clearly identified then researching will only benefit. I'm presently trying to trace more photos and info to add to the Warwick GT Gallery, hopefully some hesitant owners or past owners may feel confident enough to help out. Yes I know all the standard objections about cloning, copying, etc. but as a long-time Doretti owner TTU 455 (No.1158) and registrar, I have helped re-unite many past and present Doretti owners.

Let's hear from past and present Warwick owners - stand up and be proud.

Ken Yankey



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I'm with you on that, Ken.  The history of these cars is all myths and !egends, like mermaids, unicorns and the Loch Ness monster.

And If you want to know which car you actually have, it's probably written on the underside of the roof, above the headlining.

F



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Those numbers can be misleading. My Warwick #23 has the number 23 in one door and number 32 in the other. The window frames were mounted different.

They just put in which one was close to hand. You know they were building them so fast. 

I think there number plates went from one car to the other. 

 

Dean T.

 



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I think the problem is the misconception that a registration number plate was attached to only one car. I believe the 2 "factory" plates of Peerless/Warwick were utilized any many different cars as needed. I have seen many photos of the primrose V8 and 2 litre factory cars wearing many different plates. As I see more photos it becomes even more confusing. I even have photos of the Irish prototype V8 in front of the Dublin VW factory proudly wearing the factory 75 RBH plate in late 1961.

SO it's my belief that unless you have factory records showing VIN/Chassis numbers you will never know.

Now to the matter of wondering if the second Brands Hatch car was left hand drive. Through extensive research I believe I have accounted for 5 Warwick 3500GT cars. The only RHD car I've found is the factory demo primrose coloured car with steel wheels usually driven by R. Hamm. The other four I believe I've identified were left hand drive. One of these four was built about mid to late year 1961 and photographed by Motor magazine in October. If was then imported into the US by John Todd (the US student who arranged for Warwick to get V8 engines) when he returned from Cambridge University at the end of 1961.

If this is not the car racing at Brand Hatch then we might have found another example that I have not identified yet.

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Great thread this. I concur they moved plates around. As no stamped on the chassis or other place commission number you can never really know what number you have. Written numbers in places were most probable the vehicle it was be. But then moved around as needed to complete a vehicle. Say a door did not align. That took others to find one that best fitted. So could have different numbers on one vehicle.
It was a cottage industry. No great need for for records. Strapped for money all sorts might have happened.
We will never know Warwick or Peerless full story. This is part of the charm of owning one.
Which chassis no,s have you decided where 350.
Interestingly the only written record we have using 350gt as a model is in the Italian brochure. No English brochure mention that as a model
Love a mystery

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It is very difficult without factory records and chassis numbers! Certainly adds to the mystery of it all.

From pictures and race programmes it would appear that when cars were entered as Bernard Rodgers Developments it was 75RBH (in both 2 litre and GT350 configurations) and 1688MC (GT350 but with both styles of air intake bonnets), both were in primrose and RHD. There is a picture of 1688MC in the Brands Hatch race on another thread on the forum.

The LHD GT350 photographed for the Motor in October 1961 is unlikely to be the same car as it appears to be dark in colour and it would be surprising (but not impossible)for it to have been converted to LHD and repainted, more likely that the number plates were transposed for the photo shoot.



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More results for John Todd I dont know whether these have been put on here before I posted it on the Facebook site.



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John Todd I assume. what was the name of the student who requested the first V8? Is that known? 



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Firstly, many thanks again Mike for providing the details of the Brands Hatch meeting! I've been trying to locate those details for several years with no success. I've checked all the eBay images I saved from the box of slides against the programme details (which Mike kindly sent me) and they all match, as I was pretty certain that they would.

Back in 2017 I happened to notice some slides on eBay. The seller had acquired them as part of a "job lot" of "transportation" slides. His interest was obviously not cars, so he listed them as best he could - but most were unidentified. I noticed them on their second "run" through eBay listed individually as "35MM COLOUR SLIDE BRANDS HATCH LMC 1961" (the details written on the box from which they came) followed by some details (such as colour of car, registration number, racing number - any visible identifiers on the slide).

On their first time through, eBay seller "motoring-man" acquired the two slides of 75RBH (attached below with his permission) - of which he is currently selling prints on eBay (which can be found here: https://tinyurl.com/3zk6ph98 ).

 

Warwick GT 75RBH competing at The London Motor Club's Brands Hatch Sprint event 3rd September 1961 .jpg



Warwick GT 75RBH competing at The London Motor Club's Brands Hatch Sprint event 3rd September 1961.jpg



On their second run through eBay, I acquired the other two slides. Wingleton spotted the one of 1688MC which I posted previously on Jim Bolinger's "Period photos of Warwick V8's" thread [ https://tinyurl.com/yxmej83c ] - I've attached the image here again so that they are all together.



Warwick 350GT 1688MC competing at The London Motor Club's Brands Hatch Sprint event 3rd September 1961.jpg



The third car competing that day - 872BLU - currently resides with Dean in the 'States, I believe?!



Warwick GT 872BLU competing at The London Motor Club's Brands Hatch Sprint event 3rd September 1961.jpg



-- Edited by TomW on Saturday 27th of February 2021 03:15:39 PM

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872BLU......which was Brian Shiers car! very interesting as it was supposed to have been shipped as a new kit but then, they would do anything to reduce costs (or taxes!)

I'm (hopefully) back in touch with Brian so will chase him on this, thanks Tom and really good to see you on here again...how the devil are you young man!



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nigel c wrote:

872BLU......which was Brian Shiers car! very interesting as it was supposed to have been shipped as a new kit but then, they would do anything to reduce costs (or taxes!)

I'm (hopefully) back in touch with Brian so will chase him on this, thanks Tom and really good to see you on here again...how the devil are you young man!


 

Dean has the full history, but the car came over as an existing fully built car, chock-full of spares, on the Queen Mary.  The documentation that Dean now has is remarkable.   It's registered as a Triumph as it was a "hybrid" of Warwick parts and Brian's stolen & crashed TR3.



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Very exciting to see the clear shots of 872 BLU on the track. 

Yes, 872 BLU is still alive and well in California.   This was Brian Shier's car.  It is largely unrestored, wears its original ice blue paint and back with white piping interior. Mechanically it is great.  It has around 35,000 miles and I try to drive it every chance I can.

Brian brought it over on the Queen Mary in April of 1962 after the events at Brands Hatch and Rufforths. He took two trips on the Queen Mary.  One in March of 1961 to act as the Warwick "American Sales Team".  The passenger manifest lists his nationality as S. Rhodesian and a second trip, this time with the 872 BLU in stowage as a S. Rhodesian/British national.  He saved copies of all his canceled checks, invoices for the car, spares, and Queen Mary transport and tax invoices.

I believe the red sales car (#2) shown in the press photos with the plates that simply say WARWICK was transported on the first Queen Mary trip and later returned to the UK but I don't have any hard evidence except the press photos that Brian has from April 1961 (post marked) to his New York apartment and his interview which I haven't finished editing. 

Dave is correct, 872 BLU was full of spares and at this point included the Tunex engine with the DU6's that was removed from the red Warwick that was wrecked on the way home from Rufforths.  Brian told me that he traded his "stock" TR3 low mileage engine for the Tunex engine so Bernie could finish another "new" car. Colin Ham told me that there was only one Stage II Tunex 2L engine as the company could barely afford that one.  Tunex may have provided support with the 3500, but I don't know for sure.

Dave is also correct that 872 BLU carried a California Triumph registration. The original Queen Mary paperwork calls the make a Warwick/Triumph.  Brian said that he kept the TR3 registration while the car was in the UK (probably to save a dollar on taxes).  The TR3 was originally purchased on Rhodesia and stolen when he brought it back to the UK.  He was working in the police department at the time. The car was found the next morning off the road in a ditch.  They salvaged as much as they could from the TR3 to build 872 BLU.  I asked Brian about a crack in the Warwick bellhousing and he said it was probably form the TR3 accident.

When 872 BLU arrived in the US he registered it to his sister's tennis club address in Florida.  The DMV didn't know what a Warwick was so he used Triumph.  It carried the 1958 Triumph 2dr sedan registration throughout his ownership.  I purchased it in 2012.  To prevent any issues with insurance or the California DMV, I had the title changed to Warwick around December 2015.

Happy to post the original docs and I would love to see a full scanned copy of the Brands Hatch meeting.

Dean 

 



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59' Peerless #213, 61' Warwick GT, 60' Healey BN7, 70' Lotus Europa, 88' M5...



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Thanks Dean. That's really interesting. Must be great to have such a comprehensive history of the car!
Will

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great story Dean, I've seen a couple of Brian's photos of the time he was on the road trying to sell the Warwick GT in the states. Brilliant history.



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John Todd was a student a Cambridge University and purchased a 2 liter car from Bernie which he used for general transportation and racing while in school. This lead to further discussions with Bernie about building a V8 powered car. The Todd family well to do and were family friends with the Fords and Fishers. This lead to his ability to secure aluminum Buick motors to be sent to Warwick.

The first V8 car was sent back to the US in early 1961 according to Webster Todd (John's brother). It was send in a container along with another with a second V8 car painted red. This car was sold in the NJ area and stayed around the eastern US until it was purchased a few years ago by a gentleman in Germany. The VIN plate on this car begins with 3500 followed by the chassis number. Based on the number I believe it was the 3rd car built. I'm not sure if John Todd's cat (#1) or the factory RHD prototype (pale primrose car) carried these VIN tags also.

What I believe was the 4th car (photographed by Motor magaizine) in October 1961 was imported to the US by John Todd to the US in December 1961 when he finished his studies at Cambridge and returned home. The whereabouts of this car are currently unknown.

I previously replied to this thread asking about the second V8 racing in the fall of 1961 as this does not fit into the history that I have pieced together before. From the research I've done to date I can only verify 1 RHD V8 car. That was the pale primerose car with steel wheels primarily raced by Mr. Hamm.

Any additional info would be greatly appreciated to try any piece this big puzzle together the BEST WE CAN.

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There was one RHD GT350 racing at the start of 1961 but the factory converted the 2 litre GT press car into a GT350 mid year.

Warwick Cars entered two cars in a number of races across the country in 1961. Early in the year it was the RHD Primrose GT350 1688MC, standard bonnet with a small scoop, oil cooler in the number plate space, steel wheels and side exhausts along with RHD Primrose 2litre GT 75RBH, standard bonnet, oil cooler, steel wheels, rear exhaust. From July 1961 onwards they entered the same two cars but 75RBH had been converted to GT350 specification with a wide aperture bonnet, oil cooler in the number plate space and side exhaust.

It appears that from August 1688MC was raced with the same wide aperture bonnet.

Will


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It's around this point that I start to loose the plot.

My personal opinion, based upon some familiarity with the greasy bits of  these cars, is that cars were probably not "converted to V8".  It's a substantial bit of engineering, changing not only the engine, but all of the drive line, the steering column, and chunks of the chassis.  It involves lots of work, and you certainly can't do it with the body on.  Given that models of both variants would have been in the shop at the same time, why?  Built as V8, fine, but converted after completion?  Perhaps the very first prototype is an exception, but that was a Peerless, wasn't it?

Compared to the simple process of moving the magic number plate to another car, it's a no-brainer.

I'm sure that at the end of production some V8 chassis were modified to fit a TR engine, just to get a car out of the door.  This involves cutting a chunk out of the v8 crossmember to accommodate the TR sump, but the remains of the plot is unmistakably V8.  The steering column and body gives it away.

Once again, I cannot comprehend why anyone would cannibalize an already built and running V8 to make a 2 litre. 

This opinion is not based on detailed knowledge of the history and provenance of any of these cars, it's just plain common sense.

I'm sure some folk will vehemently claim that I'm wrong, but as we try to reconstruct the history of these beasts, can we please treat "converted" in period with the appropriate level of suspicion.

F



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